vrdantwind | IC Inbox

[Claude holds up his hands in surrender.] I didn't want a debate about it, really, Felix. Like you said, I don't even know enough to have one! I just figured this is a pretty sensitive topic for you...and I also know that, especially when you're angry, you tend to jump to conclusions. So I just wanted to make sure you'd looked at things from more than one point of view, all right?

But if you have, and you're still certain that the distinction is there and you know on what side of it they fall, I'm not going to contradict you. I can't, really. You know way more about this than me.

I'm just...sorry you have to deal with that. Knighthood isn't really worth anything by itself - its only value is in the ideals behind it. Things like loyalty, and compassion, and protecting the vulnerable. And those ideals can be practiced by anyone, not just knights. So glorifying knighthood itself as though it's synonymous with or somehow the source of those ideals...it's pretty ridiculous.

In a way, it kind of reminds me of Lorenz. He was always so proud of his nobility, talking it up, going on about his duties because of what he'd decided being a noble means and requires...as though there aren't plenty of selfish, cowardly nobles out there who don't exhibit a single quality he always said 'defines' nobility. As though he only did good things himself because he's a noble and that's what he's decided is required of nobles. He was just romanticizing his own station. And what you're describing...it's basically just people romanticizing a job. A job you know can end in some pretty horrific and tragic consequences that aren't at all romantic or glorious. It's just people seeing what they want to see, not what's really there.

[Felix rubs his face with one hand.] Sorry. You're trying to help. I know that. It's...once, when we were at the academy, my father called me home to help deal with some bandits. We saved a village in our territory. Afterward, he said he was doing it as his 'duty to the late king.' As if proclaiming his useless loyalty to a dead man was more important than the innocent lives we saved.

[Felix glances over and lifts an eyebrow, at this description of Lorenz.] I never talked to Lorenz. Now I'm glad I didn't. [He nods.] You're right. That's exactly it. It's abhorrent.

Mm. [Claude glances at Felix.] Does that mean you think your father wouldn't have helped them if he didn't have a duty to do so? If he didn't feel answerable to some dead king?

That said...I agree it's ridiculous, and there's no reason or need to look at things like that...but it doesn't make me angry, either. Probably a lot of that is due to not having lost someone I loved in the same circumstances you did, but...there's a little more to it, too. [He laces his hands together behind his back.] I guess it comes down to my own personal philosophy - you know how I am. The results are what's important, not the methods. If someone is doing the right things, helping people and being a good person - I don't know that I really care if it's because of some backwards ideas or not. The people get helped and the good deeds get done, either way. So if someone wants to better themselves to try to live up to some romanticized ideal of a knight...I figure they and the world may still be better off in the end.

They're not better off if they die a meaningless death that could have been avoided if they weren't out looking for it. [Which is what's probably going to happen to Ingrid someday.] If we were back in Fodlan, I'd give you a copy of one of those insidious chivalric tales every good Faerghan child is supposed to aspire to and you could see for yourself. The way all the 'classic' stories end in glorious sacrifice. 'There is no greater fate than dying for one's liege,' just because some long-dead hero did it. Ugh.

[He frowns, looking down at the path at their feet.] As for my father, I can hardly imagine him without all his talk of duty and loyalty. But...I suppose I believe that he would have done it anyway. I just don't see why he always had to dress everything up in the same kind of nonsense that drove Dimitri to obsess over vengeance for the dead.

Hmm...that sounds more serious than I thought, then. [Claude frowns.] I guess I thought Faerghus focused more on the virtues of knighthood in general, specifically living by them, and that dying by them was more an occasional thing that happens as a result of being a good person in a bad situation. Not that self-sacrifice itself was being promoted...I guess I couldn't believe anywhere would actually glorify something that's so obviously the last resort of somebody in a corner. Idealizing the inherently unideal. But if that's really some big romantic theme in a lot of Faerghus' stories...I guess it just goes to show how much I have to learn about other countries' cultures.

I guess you've been trying to tell me this for the last few minutes, but...it's just honestly hard to fathom for me, to the point where I couldn't really grasp it until now. It's one thing to say "if you're going to die anyway, then sell your life dearly and make your death mean something". But to say "death through self-sacrifice is a noble goal to aim for, because your duty means more than your life"....

Anyway, sorry if I wasn't getting it. And for talking about something I clearly don't understand well enough as an outsider.

You hardly have to apologize for failing to understand something so absurd. I don't understand it either. I've just seen its effects firsthand.

You have the right idea. Death is a last resort. But the Church of Seiros claims that when we die, our souls all return to the Goddess to be together, unless they have regrets. The regretful dead suffer in the Eternal Flames until someone takes vengeance for their deaths or otherwise rights their wrongs. Sometimes I think they invented that doctrine to justify their brutal idea of justice.

Edited 2020-12-27 08:55 (UTC)

Well, it's less for not understanding and more for acting like I did. I was basing my theories and thoughts on a perception of what the things you're complaining about are like, without that perception being accurate. I even tried to suggest some things you might not have considered, like you wouldn't know a lot better than me what you're talking about.

[Claude blows out a sharp breath through puffed cheeks.] Man...this probably doesn't come as too much of a surprise, since the Church of Seiros is very Fodlan-based, but I don't really share their beliefs. I sometimes...act like I do, to seem like less of an outsider, just because that's easier for me, but it's pretty obvious you're not going to give me a hard time about that. But...I won't pretend that when I first learned about that particular portion of the church's doctrine, it felt pretty horrifying to me. It just doesn't make any sense.

What if you're a terrible person who dies without any regrets? The Goddess just welcomes you to her bosom, the same as someone who led a blameless life? Why should people who die with regrets deserve to suffer? Especially people who deserve vengeance? Like you said, no wonder Dimitri's messed up, if he thinks everyone who died in the Tragedy is in agony even in death. What did they do to deserve that fate? And what kind of regrets are enough to send you to the flames? Regret at dying? Regret over not attending church enough? Regret that you got run down by a cart? Regret that you didn't bring the laundry in from the rain that one time?

It's like you say - it feels like an idea people came up with to justify bloody campaigns of vengeance, or to justify shoving the atonement for a dead man's crimes onto someone's living shoulders. It doesn't feel like a system that has any logical reason for being the way it is, or like something a loving goddess implemented for the sake of her worshippers. If it's not some sneaky agenda made by people on earth, then it's the whims of a petty and capricious goddess who doesn't seem too worthy of worship.

You did. So apology accepted for that, at least.

Ha. Those are all questions the Church doesn't want anyone to ask, and most people in Faerghus aren't like you. They just accept what they're told. The Goddess decides all those things, apparently. And works in 'mysterious ways.' But I won't be convinced that my brother's soul is eternally suffering because Dimitri hasn't personally murdered Edelgard yet. [He shakes his head.] Or his father's, for that matter. King Lambert wasn't perfect by any means, but he wouldn't harangue the son he doted on to abandon everything he believes in and act like a wild beast for the sake of bloody vengeance.

They sure don't want anyone asking! I know because I've tried. [Claude laughs.] Man, the looks and lectures I've gotten from Seteth...

[He sobers back up at the things Felix goes on to say, however.] I think you're right. I can't claim to know why the church believes what it believes, and I don't want to paint the faith of other countries and people as some backwards or universally bad thing...especially when I know the Church of Seiros does a lot of good, for any bad parts it might have, and it encourages doing good in others. But some of its beliefs are straight up awful, and contradict each other, and my guess is that either someone completely misunderstood teachings passed down about the Goddess' will and intentions and that misinformation has just gone unquestioned through the years ever since it was first recorded...or someone's intentionally twisted church doctrine to suit their own ends, either inventing new religious dogma from whole cloth or deliberately twisting some ideas that already existed. That'd explain why ideas like "the loving Goddess gave so much to humanity" and "the Goddess wants people who died with regrets to suffer torment in fire until someone living makes things right for them" are so basically incompatible - different sources with different ideas.

I mean, the church is made up of people, and even the archbishop is just interpreting the will of the Goddess. If the Goddess was real, and she did have ideas and practices that the church is trying to teach and carry on...the fact remains that for centuries upon centuries, those things have been passing through a filter of people with their own thoughts, agendas, and biases. It's like light passing through a whole series of lenses. If even one the lenses are colored or imperfect, the light that comes through them is inevitably going to be altered - and if all of them have their own individual effect on the light, what you have at the end might be so different and diffuse compared to the light you started with that it'll end up totally unrecognizable.

I know I'm speaking about a religion I don't follow, as an outsider, so it's not really my place to pass judgment or to suggest how other people engage with their religion. But I can't help thinking, personally, that religion should be more of a guide to help you form your own views of right and wrong, what to believe and what not to believe, than some rigid code people have to follow without question or individual interpretation. I think the Church of Seiros has plenty of good people can glean from it, but stuff like that whole torment-for-the-regretful-dead idea...it seems like some backwards remnant of some bitter bishop's teachings that doesn't even fit with the good parts. So just throw it out! Religions can have ideas that are outdated or unhealthy or backwards; being part of that faith doesn't mean you're bound to every single belief and practice that religion has ever had. You should choose what you believe, with your faith as a guide - your faith shouldn't be choosing what you believe for you, even when you hate those beliefs, they're actively hurting you, and they don't make sense within the faith's moral code or your own.

Edited (slight wording change) 2020-12-29 08:23 (UTC)

I'm not surprised you and Seteth didn't get along. But he's not nearly as bad as everyone always said he was. Meddlesome, but...he gives good advice. Like you.

[Felix listens to Claude without interrupting, though he sort of tunes out the bit about lenses. He's not sure why you'd ever line up a bunch of pairs of glasses to shine light through them? But he knows that if he asks, he'll get way more of an explanation than he ever wanted, so he doesn't bother. He gets the point, and that's what matters.

By the time Claude finishes, Felix is giving him a thoughtful look.] Now you sound like my brother. He always said the same thing, that people should choose what they believe in and then live by that. [Or die by it. He falls silent briefly, thinking about Rodrigue.] I suppose, as disgusted with my father as I was, he never tried to force his beliefs or anyone else's onto us. I'm...grateful for that much.

[Then he shrugs.] I don't know whether I believe the Goddess is real or not, but I do know that the Church is stronger in Faerghus than anywhere else in Fodlan, and it shows. It's been embedded in the Kingdom's governance since the beginning. Technically, Dimitri could override Rhea's authority and go against the Church, but it's hardly ever happened and it wouldn't be pretty. The Archbishop is the one who coronates the king, after all. Bestowing the favor of the Goddess upon Her Holy Kingdom, and all that. I doubt Rhea would take it lying down.

Well, I don't mind telling you that Rhea still hasn't been found as recently as my own point in time, so what she does or doesn't approve of right now is kind of a moot point. Who knows if she's even still alive...

[He looks up at the sky again.] That said, there's a big gap between deciding what to believe for yourself, and opposing the church's beliefs on the behalf of the entire Kingdom. Are you saying you think Dimitri should try to restrict or control the Church of Seiros' teachings within the Kingdom, using his authority as king?

At this point, I doubt it. What would be the point of hiding all this time? Or keeping her captive without using her as leverage?

[Felix shrugs.] I was speaking hypothetically. It's not like we don't benefit from the Church's presence. Even now--without Garreg Mach as a base and the support of the Knights of Seiros, we wouldn't have gotten anywhere in the war. We tried leading an invasion of Fhirdiad from Fraldarius before and failed. Maybe Dimitri's presence would have changed things enough, but I doubt it.

All I'm saying is that the Church is a major part of the problem and has been since the beginning.

It sounds like your only use for the church is the Knights of Seiros and the military might they represent, not the actual religion. [Claude looks amused.] Which, I mean, I'm not judging, but also that's a very shallow form of 'benefiting from the church'. Even I'll allow that the church's beliefs and teachings - in moderation, and specifically certain parts of them as opposed to other parts - can be good for people looking for some greater thing to place their faith in and for guidance in how to best live their lives, but do you not think it's even worth that much?

That said, it really does seem like the Church of Seiros has maybe too much influence over Fodlan. I know it's largely behind the Crest system, for instance, and the elevation of Crested nobility, and that's certainly at the root of any number of problems. And Edelgard is clearly of the opinion that the Church of Seiros needs to be completely eliminated for a better future for Fodlan, considering she declared war on it directly as emperor and Garreg Mach was her first military target of the war...

Personally, I agree the Church of Seiros definitely has its problems and secrets, but getting rid of it entirely feels like going way too far. Telling people what they can and can't believe, or even declaring war on them for it...even if you say it's for the greater good, that's the sort of thing that turns bad fast. The line between savior and dictator is so thin you'll never even notice you've crossed it. I'll admit that I don't know if there's some easier, more diplomatic way to extract the worst parts of the church from its followers' beliefs, to loosen how tightly it's bound up with Faerghus, or to get the kind of world Edelgard wants with it gone...but I do know that, as far as I'm aware, no one's actually tried yet. Definitely not Edelgard. So I can't agree with Edelgard's just deciding she needed to go for ramming change through by force as her opening move.

The strength to protect our people and fight back a tyrant isn't 'shallow.' If people want to pray to the Goddess and seek guidance from the Church, that's their affair, but I personally have no use for that. I don't need a stranger's guidance and the ideals of an absent Goddess to tell me how to live. I have beliefs and passions to live for that are mine alone.

[Felix grunts his agreement with Claude's talk about Edelgard.] And the war would have been bad enough without the repugnant dark magic. Forcing people to turn against each other, transforming them into demonic beasts...even if I did agree wholeheartedly with her cause, and even if war were necessary, I could never follow someone who would condone such abhorrent methods.

...but it's true that I would like to see a world where Crests didn't matter. [For Sylvain's sake, and that of people like him. People like Miklan, for what he was driven to do. Felix will never forgive what Sylvain's brother did to him, but he can recognize that the problem is much bigger than one disowned and murderous heir.] And I don't see the Church allowing that kind of world anytime soon.

I don't know what the answer is. I'm not a big picture kind of guy, like you and Dimitri. [He doesn't sound like he minds this--it's just a fact.]

Well, I meant it's shallow in terms of one looking at the church as an institution. Its knights are basically just its enforcers; they've got very little to do with the church in regards to its main function as a religious institution. It'd be like if I said I admired the Holy Kingdom of Faerghus because it has a strong army - is the army itself representative of the Kingdom at all? Does Faerghus' army shape Faerghus, or is it the other way around?

But you're right - it's Edelgard's methods that have always been the problem, one way or the other. I've said before that I believe she wants what's best for Fodlan in her heart, as much as any of us - it's just how she's going about pursuing that that's the issue.

[He sighs.] I just...wish she'd talked to me about what she wanted to do. Her plans and desires for Fodlan, and how to achieve them. I could understand if she felt like Dimitri might be unwilling to listen, being from a country so intrinsically tied to the church while she thinks the church is the problem...although personally, I think she'd be underselling Dimitri thinking that. I could at least see that as a conclusion she might draw, though. But why not me? The Alliance isn't particularly religious as a whole, and I personally am even less so. Why was she so convinced any diplomacy would be so useless, or even actively detrimental, that she wouldn't even attempt any? Things never should have come to this.

[He shakes his head.] Well...I can brood about it all day, but I can't change the way things are. No point beating a dead horse. But it's like you said - I think there's a lot more room for the church's beliefs and traditions being...if not eliminated, then at least made less central to the very fabric of Fodlan than it is. Scaled back. A lot of people have their issues with Crests these days, and everyone knows that Crests are on their way out. They've been getting rarer and rarer in the blood ever since the days of the first Crest bearers, and now people are desperately angling to catch whatever scraps that are left. But how long can that last? Unless the Goddess suddenly appears again and renews her blessings, humanity's going to hit the point where Crests just vanish on their own sooner or later. Why wait until we reach that point to figure out life without Crests in Fodlan? There's really only one reason: so the current noble Crest-bearing houses can stay in power, unquestioned.

When Crests are gone, and the nobles aren't any different from the commoners they rule over, then suddenly the money and power nobles have...those are the only things separating them from commoners. And those things are transferrable. If people start asking, hey, shouldn't the people in power be the ones who are best for the job, it's going to be hard to argue against. Before, the primary merit of nobles was that they had Crests that made them stronger and more capable than an average person; without merit that's carried in the blood, they'll have to prove their worth, earn their keep, show skill and intellect and moral fiber beyond those of the people below them. And a lot of them, even today, wouldn't be able to rise to that challenge. Much safer to keep an intrinsic bloodline justification for their positions. That's why most noble families cling to Crests with both hands.

Of course Faerghus is shaped by its military. Dimitri and I learned to wield weapons before we learned to read or write. It's a warrior culture, and I'm glad for that. As far as I'm concerned, the Knights of Seiros and their peerless skill are the primary benefits of the Church. And if the Church itself didn't at least partially agree, they wouldn't dispatch them to enforce their doctrines so readily, and they wouldn't ensure that only the central Church is allowed to have a standing army.

[Felix frowns.] Doesn't it seem like the Church would take measures to make sure that didn't happen? They know as well as we do that Crests are dying out, and that without Crested nobility, a lot of their excuses for meddling in governance go away. I don't know what those measures would be, though.

I think you're putting the cart before the horse there, Felix. [Claude chuckles a little.] Faerghus' military doesn't shape Faerghus; Faerghus' military is a reflection of Faerghus. Were you and Dimitri soldiers in the military when you were taught to fight so young? I don't think so. That's Faerghus' culture. And the culture of a country will influence its military, sure, but that doesn't mean the military defines the country. There's more to Faerghus' culture than just its military, isn't it? Its religious ties to the church, that very veneration of self-sacrifice you were disgusted by earlier, its fierce independence, its monarchy, the ties between House Blaiddyd and House Fraldarius, its food, its entertainment, its architecture, its art - even the most militant country, Felix, is so much more than just its soldiers. Just as the church is so much more than its knights. Without the religion at the core of the church, there'd be no knights. And without the culture at the core of the country, there'd be no Faerghus military.

You said you're not a big picture guy, and that's no indictment of you - you were raised to be a duke, not the leader of a nation. The skillsets are totally different. And it's fine if, to you, the Knights of Seiros are the only thing of value the church has to offer - that's practical enough. But when I say that's a pretty shallow reason to approve of the church, since the Knights of Seiros make up at best maybe 5% of what the church actually is, you might just have to trust me on that one. I might be capable of seeing the big picture of the church better than you do.

As for how the church plans to address the disappearance of Crests...I have no idea. They don't seem to be doing anything differently now, as Crests are dying out, than they did in the past when Crests were a lot stronger and more prevalent...maybe they don't know, either. Maybe they're like the nobility, powerless to do anything except exist on what scraps the Goddess left behind until eventually there aren't any more, with no actual plans for what to do when they're all gone. Although...for an otherwise benevolent leader, Lady Rhea's always been fiercely intolerant of anyone who goes against the church, and treats opposing the church as opposing the Goddess herself. Maybe her plan is to just keep stomping out dissent whenever and wherever it flares up, with extreme prejudice, so that total obedience to the church becomes so ingrained in who's left that it persists even once the Goddess' blessings are gone.

I wasn't raised to be a duke. My brother was. I barely had any time to learn anything about governing a dukedom before I went to the academy, and since then we've been at war. [Felix shrugs.] So if my cart is before the horse, it's because all I ever thought I would do was fight.

[He tilts his head, glancing at Claude.] You really love this stuff, though, don't you? Politics and culture, peacetime leadership. Most nobles I know don't really enjoy running territories, they do it because it's what keeps them in power. Not you, though.

Ah. [Claude grimaces a little. Of course - Felix has already mentioned his brother. But as someone who didn't know Felix until after Glenn was already long dead...it's easy to forget Felix wasn't always the intended heir to the Fraldarius title.] That's true, sorry. But you get what I mean, right?

As for whether I enjoy it... [Claude chuckles.] Well, I definitely wouldn't say I hate it! I think it's safe to say I enjoy the prize more than the game, though. Things going smoothly, people happy and cared for, battles avoided, stuff like that. And it's like I told Dimitri - if you want the results, then to some degree you also definitely want everything that goes into getting the results. Not everyone who gardens enjoys getting their hands dirty, but if they love flowers enough, then it's worth it in the end. That's why they get their hands dirty anyway.

[Without thinking about it, he puts his hands behind his head again.] As for me...I have even grander goals beyond just keeping people fed and happy and safe - all of which require good management, by the way. But you can't build to lofty dreams on crumbling foundations, I know that much. So you work your way up, one step after another, getting the smallest goals achieved, which feed into the bigger ones, which feed into bigger ones still...and if you keep doing that enough, then anything's possible.

I do. Unfortunately, as Dimitri's advisor, I don't have the luxury of only knowing about that 5% forever. Ugh. The thought of going back to that empty estate and assuming my father's position and duties feels like a prison sentence.

[Felix's eyes slide sideways toward him when he shifts his stance again, but says nothing about it this time. Is Claude doing it on purpose? Or is it really just as habitual as he said?]

I can't say I've ever had any goals grand or lofty enough to warrant such complex planning, and I don't want them. [His tone slips a bit into surliness. I loathe politics and management. I don't even like leading troops into battle. I'm a precision weapon, not a strategist.

What kinds of ambitions do you have that are loftier than leading the whole Alliance?

[Hey, it won't be empty because you'll have Sylvain there, Felix! There's always your trophy husband to comfort you.]

You're a man who likes swordfighting, not a weapon. [Claude's tone is placid.] I won't let Dimitri dehumanize himself calling himself a beast, and I won't let you do it calling yourself an object, either. Your self-esteem might not be in quite as dire a state as his, but I still don't think it's a good habit to fall into. You're a lot more than a sword, Felix.

As for my ambitions... [Claude chuckles.] I want to open borders. Everywhere, ideally, but especially Fodlan's with its isolationist policies and its general hostility and distrust toward other countries and the people in them. I want people and cultures to be able to mingle and appreciate each other, no matter how different they might be. No more "oh, that guy's from Duscur, you know what they're like" from people who don't actually have the first idea what Duscur is like! No more princesses being held political prisoner because two countries distrust each other enough to need hostages. No more senseless raids where kids lose their families and then get taken prisoner in a foreign land that looks down on them, just because two countries have such different cultures that they insist the other must be inferior. I want cultural and personal differences to be a source of fascination, not fear. I want people to actually know each other before they make up their minds about each other.

It's incredibly simple...but also an impossibly tall order at the same time, isn't it?

...hm. I'd say it's semantics, but maybe you have a point. Still. I'm a warrior. I'll make a poor excuse for a politician. But I'll do what I must.

[He listens to Claude's plans thoughtfully, without interruption.]

You're right. It sounds like a fanciful pipe dream to me. But you clearly have an idea of how it could be done, building on foundations and whatnot. And I've seen you pull off other feats I thought were impossible. I thought the Alliance would crumble within the first year of the war, but it didn't, because of you. So if someone's going to try, it should be you.

You sound like Dimitri, actually. He has a lot of similar goals, with Duscur and Sreng. He wants to not just open the borders but give back their land and make reparations. From what I know, Sreng will be more difficult by far, but it would improve Faerghus' situation significantly if we didn't have to constantly patrol the northern border.

You're a guy who tackles every challenge he faces with every ounce of skill and effort he can muster, and someone who gets good at anything he does. [Claude smiles sidelong at him.] I doubt you'll enjoy being a politician, but I'm not worried you won't become good at it.

[At Felix's statement of faith, Claude chuckles - but honestly, he feels his cheeks warm a little. Of all the people to say they believe he can achieve his dream, getting those words from Felix feels...particularly meaningful.] You've got such touching faith in me, sunshine...how can I possibly fail now?

But you're right - Dimitri's already on the same page as me, and was from before I ever met him. It's one of the reasons I know he'll be an incredible king.

[Felix isn't sure why his face is faintly coloring over something so small.] I'll do the job regardless, I don't need buttering up.

[Wait a second, is Claude...? No, it's just the lighting or something. Right?] I can't tell whether you're mocking me or not. But yes. You and Dimitri both have the same ludicrously idealistic goals and the kinds of personalities that might just get you there. When the war ends, I suppose the two of you will split Adrestia between our two nations, or something of the sort?

I wasn't saying those things to butter you up - they're just true.

Likewise, I'm not teasing you; I really mean it. It's sweet that you believe in me - all the more so because I know you're pretty discerning about believing in anyone or anything. You know, just because I'm sometimes manipulative or teasing doesn't mean I'm jerking you around nearly as often as you think I am when we talk. Sometimes I say something just because that's what I think.

As for how Fodlan will end up after the war...that's actually already been decided, by my point in time. [He looks up at the sky.] It's one of the things I'll talk to you guys about once Dimitri's in a good enough place for the conversation to happen.

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